scriptygoddess

1 | Sekimori

May 15th, 2004 at 8:15 am

Expression Engine is offering a free license to the first 1K people who "switch" from a different blog/cms software to EE.

2 | Jay Allen

May 15th, 2004 at 9:05 am

Wow, Jennifer. I must say that's pretty shocking. Do make sure that you're doing it for the right reasons though and not because of some misunderstanding. That would be a pity.

While the desire for a PHP-based CMS is definitely something MT can't satisfy, I saw this in your other post and feel compelled to comment:

"But it's still missing some significant features in my opinion and for what they're asking for it now – it's simply not worth it."

3.0D is for developers. It's TOTALLY feature rich if you're a developer. More on those thoughts here.

Also:

(And I'm really confused by their saying that it's still a free version – last I checked $70 was still $70. – and that license won't even cover me completely.)

There is still MT Free and with the clarifications on weblogs and authors it covers a LOT of people. For those like yourself who it may not cover, then yes, there's the Personal Edition. but you've already donated, what? $45? So it's $20 more.

BUT, don't upgrade. There's no need until the feature release, unless you want to develop against it.

Honestly? I don't see why so many people feel the need to switch RIGHT NOW before the feature release. Maybe it's just to make a statement or something. [shrug]

In any case, I will be sad to see you go…

3 | Doc

May 15th, 2004 at 10:33 am

I got my copy of EE and I'm with you, its just too powerful to at least not give it a good look. I may stick with MT in the long-run, at least for some projects, but I gotta try it, especially since I got it for free. I am waiting to make the final move till I see what MT general is going to offer.

In either case, I hope you continue to support the MT community as well as adding the EE community to the mix. This site is "the place" to come and find what you need. It's too important a resource in the blog world.

4 | Doc

May 15th, 2004 at 10:51 am

I got my copy of EE and I'm with you, its just too powerful to at least not give it a good look. I may stick with MT in the long-run, at least for some projects, but I gotta try it, especially since I got it for free. I am waiting to make the final move till I see what MT general is going to offer.

In either case, I hope you continue to support the MT community as well as adding the EE community to the mix. This site is "the place" to come and find what you need. It's too important a resource in the blog world.

5 | Doc

May 15th, 2004 at 10:52 am

Sorry bout the double post.. My net connection dies mid post. Just delete this and the extraneous.. 😉

6 | miss representation

May 15th, 2004 at 11:01 am

In response to Jay comment: Jay, developer releases aren't usually presented on the home page (did Apple do this with OS X?). I suspect everyone is talking now for two and a half reasons: 1. They are concerned the next round will be even more expensive, and so they want to lock in the last best version they can afford (I know fully licensed users of Photoshop 5 and Illustrator 6-8 that have no interest of upgrading, ever), since shouldn't we expect the feature-rich version to get even more expense or restrictive (note, you can say, no developer editions are more expensive, and you may be correct in some instances, but Mena's had two chances to address this and has not)? And 2. These are the people who might not be the Great God Developer, but let's be honest, put as much energy in to making MT what it is as a brand or a tool because they care about the Content (I know, I know, if you can't do the System part you don't count, but shit, I thought this was about empowering non-technical users), and they are as much early adopters as the tech heads. The half is, if this core group is being priced out of options, they want to identify the best alternate solution and start ASAP. If we have to throw our efforts into learning the limited about of prgramming/formatting we did to get MT to work the way we wanted, we have to start all over again, and find organize our support those who can make WordPress, for instance, become a multi-blog, multi-author system.

7 | Jay Allen

May 15th, 2004 at 11:10 am

Jay, developer releases aren't usually presented on the home page (did Apple do this with OS X?).

No, but Apple already had an established developer network and by virtue of being an operating system were ALREADY a platform.

"They are concerned the next round will be even more expensive, and so they want to lock in the last best version they can afford"

I can't really give you an answer here but given the reactions, I doubt that they'll be raising prices anytime soon.

"Mena's had two chances to address this and has not"

Geez, give the poor girl a chance. It's only been 24 hours and most of that was putting out the fire they started.

"These are the people who might not be the Great God Developer, but let's be honest, put as much energy in to making MT what it is as a brand or a tool because they care about the Content (I know, I know, if you can't do the System part you don't count, but shit, I thought this was about empowering non-technical users), and they are as much early adopters as the tech heads."

This confuses me. Anyone can purchase 3.0. That's why there are personal licenses. No one is locked out. However, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense for everyone.

Can you explain this point more?

"if this core group is being priced out of options, they want to identify the best alternate solution and start ASAP."

And that is what I don't understand. For example, there are people still running Windows 98 and Windows 2000 because it works for them (although I wouldn't suggest it). Just because a developer release comes out, everyone starts scurrying looking for the exits when just a few days before everything was fine?

The alternatives will be there long after the MT feature release comes out this summer. Wouldn't it make sense to take a "wait and see" attitude?

8 | miss representation

May 15th, 2004 at 12:42 pm

Jay: in repsonse to your question. You initially asked:

Honestly? I don't see why so many people feel the need to switch RIGHT NOW before the feature release. Maybe it's just to make a statement or something. [shrug]

Jay: I went to MT yesterday cause I saw a remaindered link at Kottke's site, and I was excited by the idea of being able to pay real money for a tool I think is great, get a new version (not that I really care about this; I skipped 2.661 cause I don't do comments, but I generally like to keep up to date on releases), all that. That makes me an early adopter, not a developer. The information on the home page was a little confusing about the update: if it is a developer edition intended to encourage plug-in development, shouldn't I buy now if I want immediate access to plug-ins, as they are released? Again, as highly interested user (but not devleoper), any UI or layout tools I would want as soon as possible. I just got an email from Appnel after buying, yes buying, MTrss-feed, encouraging me to upgrade so I could test the 2.0 version of rss-feed, which would require MT3.0.

When a change in software affects workflow, any reasonable user wants the earliest possible information so as to prepare for the upgrade/changes. Some need to because, as, say content developers, not program developers, the need to be concurrent with the most recent features of software is crucial: for instance, MS Word, with PDF, is now competitive with Quark for perhaps 70% of corporate document production, but most designers do not know the more sophisticated features of Word to make them competitive with a lot of development shops or internal marketing departments for document design and production. As a designer, understanding the tools is crucial, and I want to be on top of changes Day One.

I never said anyone was locked out. I said they were priced out. Your comments, here and on your site, over the past two days, were to the affect that "if you aren't a developer, then don't buy this version." Anyone can buy, and you were recommending against. I was only pointing out that those who aren't developers, but still do a lot of tweaking, are frustrated by the blogs/authors limits, and aren't rushing to change, but since there is a welter of discussion, and some useful information, if, say, a few thousand of us decide to go elsewhere (since there is notindication that a personal unlimited license will become available), why not organize now when everyone is talking?

I'm not running to WordPress, but it 100 people are going to try switch this weekend, I want to learn from there efforts, the same way I learned from all those who worked with MT installs and template designs before me. I'm a little frustrated by the 'oh you kids! Let me tell you how it us' I hear from Appnel, and some degee, from you. I mean, isn't the 'power' user the one who is most likely to be donating or willing to purchase at $150-200 for an unlimited license and would be buying plug-ins? The ultra whiny group (ugh! 70$! End of Civilization!) never paid for anything and never will.

I prepaid my hosting for a year, and want to own my tools. The MT I have gives me the control that I want for what it is as a tool. I thought it was foolishly cheap. I just want to pay for the tool they gave me (I did donate), have access to upgrades and improvements (and pay for them) so I can continue to make things with it. It was, for years, a Personal Publishing System. Remember? Was right there, part of the logo, top of the page. Now, after thousands of Personal Users have supported it to the point that it can be a revenue generating entity, the product has been redifined. If I wanted a hosted blog tool, I would have stayed with Blogger. I changed my hosting arrangements so I could run MT. When ever a software company decides to shitcan a big chunk of their user base (in terms of mindshare), the transition is going to be ugly. I'll keep my 2.64 install until something comes along that offers enough features comparatively (likely Expression Engine, but I need to spend more time researching) and move. What I'm most curious to know is: how much do they think a personal unlimited license is worth?

9 | miss representation

May 15th, 2004 at 12:46 pm

Oh, and sorry, I keep posting the wrong URL. Friggin auto-fill and lack of attention on my part.

10 | Jay Allen

May 15th, 2004 at 1:16 pm

First off Miss R, I would say that by your description, you're not exactly the average MT user. If you have reason to upgrade, then dammit, you should. But I don't think that most people have any reason to upgrade, at least not until July-ish.

I never said anyone was locked out. I said they were priced out.

For some people, I am quite sure that that is true and as sad as it is, that is what happens when a company monetizes a product.

Those who do not fit under the MT Free license but don't need the 5/5 that comes with the Personal Edition are in a bit of a lurch. Luckily, with the clarification today, I think a LOT more people fall back under the MT free license, which is precisely what 6A's survey found.

but since there is a welter of discussion, and some useful information, if, say, a few thousand of us decide to go elsewhere (since there is notindication that a personal unlimited license will become available), why not organize now when everyone is talking?

Sure, that's one way to look at it. I suppose that I'm a hell of a lot more pragmatic about somethign as big as switching my weblogging software. Especially when a major feature release is on the horizon…

I'm not running to WordPress, but it 100 people are going to try switch this weekend, I want to learn from there efforts, the same way I learned from all those who worked with MT installs and template designs before me.

All of it, I'm sure, will be posted to the web… Seriously though, I think the difference is that you must have a lot more time than I do. There's no way I could even consider switching right now. Hell, I don't have time to upgrade to MT 3.0! (Actually, I don't want to until I upgrade MT-Blacklist…

I'm a little frustrated by the 'oh you kids! Let me tell you how it us' I hear from Appnel, and some degee, from you. I mean, isn't the 'power' user the one who is most likely to be donating or willing to purchase at $150-200 for an unlimited license and would be buying plug-ins? The ultra whiny group (ugh! 70$! End of Civilization!) never paid for anything and never will.

I don't understand. Errr. Can you explain that? I mean, from what I can understand from the above, you're saying that the ultra whiny group should go. I probably would tend to agree. If you detected any paternalistic attitude from me, it was only because people (sane people, not just the UWG), were losing their heads and I didn't see why.

Add to that the invective, and I couldn't stand by and just let people shit sling. Sorry if you feel that's in some way condescending. Some people were acting like spoiled brats.

Now, after thousands of Personal Users have supported it to the point that it can be a revenue generating entity, the product has been redifined. If I wanted a hosted blog tool, I would have stayed with Blogger.

Huh? Are you talking about MT or TypePad?

need to spend more time researching) and move. What I'm most curious to know is: how much do they think a personal unlimited license is worth?

Personally, I don't think it's a matter of money. I think it's a matter of leaks. If you allow unlimited anything, there is a chance that you will be losing customers right out of the bottom of your own boat through other customers. Why should Blogger A buy MT when Blogger B has an unlimited license and can just throw him on? Unlimited licenses cannibalize your own sales.

And it gets worse when you add corporations into the mix.

11 | Adam

May 15th, 2004 at 3:50 pm

Sorry, Jay, it's a matter of trust.

I don't trust that the SA team really GETS IT about being customer-centric. They've failed to effectively communicate one too many times… and at this point, apologies just don't cut it.

I've been on the fence for a while anyway; my MT rebuild times are annoyingly high, comment posting times are unpleasant, and so on. But I could have actually continued dealing with that; switching involves high costs… time is money!!!

No, Jay, it really comes down to communication and trust. The developers of WordPress *REGULARLY* interact with their customers. Oh, but that's open source, right? Well, the developers of ExpressionEngine *REGULARLY* interact with their customers, too.

Both WP and EE also release at least weekly updates and bug fixes. When you e-mail Matt or Rick, you actually get a personal e-mail back.

Supporting a blogging tool isn't like buying a lawn mower. It's personal. And no matter how kind and talented Ben and Mena are, they've always been distant and impersonal, IMHO. I've never seen the post anything in the support forum. Heck, I've rarely seen them post anything anywhere.

They're busy people. They've also apologized for their lack of communications. Fine. I can respect them for their intentions, which I know in my heart are undeniably for the good. But they're not good enough for me, I'm afraid.

That's why I'm moving on, even if it involves paying a yearly fee to the ExpressionEngine team and perhaps even paying for plugins. Just as I happily donated to MT, I'm quite pleased to put my wallet where my interests are.

So dangit, will y'all (not aimed at you, Jay) stop calling us cheapskates?!

12 | Jennifer

May 15th, 2004 at 4:34 pm

Jay – 6A should have hired you to be their PR/spokesperson. I have a lot more respect for you and the way you handle things than I do for them. As well, you're a much better communicator.

What you're saying makes sense, but I have a bitter taste in my mouth. There's always been promise of a bigger and better MT 3 – but I thought they DID put out a feature list, and quite frankly, I didn't think it was that extensive. (Not talking ability to add on – which would be interesting for me if I was a PERL developer – but I'm not).

So for me – I understand what you're saying – but I'm still annoyed with their lack of communication and what appears to me to be a very weak release. And if there's more features in the works – why on earth would you release the PRICING before releasing the list of FEATURES. That seems to display incredibly poor judgement.

Again, this is not a reflection on YOU – and if it had been YOU handling the dissemination of information to the public, my feelings probably would have been different. But at the end of the day – it is frustrating for me, as a PHP "developer" (more like a PHP "player-arounder") to try and integrate with a PERL based CMS. A move just makes sense for me and will give me more opportunities to write plugins and more hacks myself. This bad taste was just the kick in my pants to get me to do it – because just as you have said – it takes a lot of time and energy to make a move.

13 | miss representation

May 15th, 2004 at 6:15 pm

Huh? Are you talking about MT or TypePad?

My first foray into blogging, like many, was Blogger. I very quickly did not like the model, the interface, the slow servers. After about two hours of research, I found MT, downloaded, and installed it (of course, I never got around to a live blog for about a year and a half). The first rebuild choked the 9netave processor throttle (which they lied about), and I moved hosts. My comment was to the effect that I know I have have unlimited blogs and users on TypePad (one of the counter arguments many others have made), but I chose not to go with a hosted system. Honestly, my impression was of MT was: 'Here is another way to do CMS (personal or not). No limits, no complex licensing.' I contend that many invested their labor and time under the belief that this model would continue.

The clarification is inadequate (due to the specificity of a URL and the fallow periods they require). I would be pushing the limits of the 5/5 limit right now, even though I have only one blog I consider active, and it only has one author. This requires a narrow read of the license, but I pride myself in only using fully licensed software under the terms set out.

If MT wanted to capture the corporate market, they they should have developed a seperate product (MT Enterprise). Your blithe assumption that there are hordes of companies out there violating MT licensing agreement is again a dead end, practically speaking. Most of my corporate clients barely understand what a blog is, would never be able to set up or maintain MT, and if their IT department even got a whiff of it, would stomp it in a second. So the guerilla corporate folks ain't gonna pony up for a corporate license no more that the low end whiners who don't see the value of the software as it stands (a license would be more hassle internally to approve to offset the support you might get).

I don't do development. I do design and marketing, and we are always hard pressed to determine the intrangible value of our services. My frustration and arguments (as many others have I argued) spring from the uncalculated, and uncompensated, value from the committed community that are brand champions, low-end customer service and community activists who sustained MT when they had a vague business model, and a limited income stream. The current licensing model is a monstrous fvck you gesture to that community. Most of us never expected to derive income from our work directly, but I believe saw the effort as sweat equity in return for the fact that the software was free and I bet most were thrilled so see the Trott's realize some windfall, and and now feel we were either played for suckers, or they are unfortunately too-self aggrandizing to see the benefit their user community brought them. You can point to downloads as a metric all you want, but that is the red herring of the BSA (ooh, there are a bazillion illegal copies of Photoshop! as if most people even know how to use it). It was the success and attention of a much narrower slice of the blog community, almost all of whom has the 'Powered by Movable Type' tag at the bottom of the page, that gave the Trott's such leverage.And I can understand your want to tamp down the low end of whining, but having gone through most of the Trackbacks, I would argue an abnormally high percentage of the posts were well above troll level, and I think most of the folks that read yours, or Appnel's responses, were the very ones making reasoned points. Not to be snide, but I doubt that the 'I can't afford $20 bucks' folk even know who you are (and that's probably a good thing).

14 | Glenn McGaha Miller

May 17th, 2004 at 2:40 pm

Not that I could pick up from this original post, but reading through the comments, I gather you are thinking of leaving MT as a result of the announcement(s)?

I have to say, I find myself in the same boat and here's why: To me, that pricing seems excessive. I don't understand how you go from "free" to where they are positioning themselves now in one leap. Secondly, more and more of MT's "features" feel like add-ons to an aging product where maybe a new core was what was needed… I've been there before; Anyone else remember Ashton-Tate and DBII???

Again, to me it just seems like the PERFECT time to look around and perhaps rethink the tools I'm using and so, that's exactly what I intend on doing.

15 | mel

May 18th, 2004 at 3:40 pm

Bottom line: they lied

There's really no way to get around that. period.

16 | Building things

May 15th, 2004 at 4:50 pm

Take two
Put up or shut up, it's innovative as hell, isn't it?

17 | Teal Sunglasses

May 16th, 2004 at 1:50 pm

more on Movable Type 3.0…
I previously chimed in here. Since then, so have lots of others, and so has Six Apart, where Mena has commented on the controversies and noted some clarifications and updates to the licensing. Good for them for being understanding about the underlying …

18 | Teal Sunglasses

May 16th, 2004 at 1:58 pm

more on Movable Type 3.0…
I previously chimed in here. Since then, so have lots of others, and so has Six Apart, where Mena has commented on the controversies and noted some clarifications and updates to the licensing. Good for them for being understanding about the underlying …