scriptygoddess

14 May, 2004

Not that I assume my opinion will be read/heard or counts…

Posted by: Jennifer In: Announcements

I read somewhere that 6A is looking for suggestions on how to make things "right" – that's really tough at this point. They waited FAR to long for this release – did NOT communicate enough about what they planned to do – and this release (while I'm sure has lots of backend glitz) I was still really hoping for some snazzy cool fun features that many people have been begging for.

I think its funny that some people point at the ones that don't want to pay and say that we're cheap. But they've missed a fine point. I WILL pay for MT – in fact I already did. MT was "free" but I donated money for two "keys". HAPPILY. Because this was a good product. But it's still missing some significant features in my opinion and for what they're asking for it now – it's simply not worth it. MT PRO should be the "pay" one and MT 3.0 remain free. (Isn't this what we were lead to believe all along?) (And I'm really confused by their saying that it's still a free version – last I checked $70 was still $70. – and that license won't even cover me completely.)

The second problem is that I love PHP. I have always had to work against the grain to get what I wanted MT to do, by using PHP. I waited paitently and faithfully for them to get their act together and release a more feature-rich MT. Which they still have not done in my opinion. Again, if there were more FRONT-END USER BASED (not DEVELOPER based) features – then I would have forked over more cash.

They really put the screws in on their userbase. They've been so secretive about everything (which is really ironic when you think about it – I mean we're talking about BLOG software – software that is used to COMMUNICATE to the PUBLIC – yet they didn't) – and if they had asked their USERBASE what THEY wanted – they probably would have seen this coming.

I'm thinking that maybe they're now strictly going for COMMERCIAL end-users – and see TypePad as the option for users like me. Unfortunately, I like hosting stuff on my own servers. I like tinkering with the blog engine and hacking it to do all kinds of funky stuff. So TypePad is out.

So for me – there's not much that can be done except to do what is LONG LONG overdue and start working with a PHP based CMS. (Still remains to be seen which one I use and WHEN I finally have the time to transfer everything). But the move itself is pretty much set in stone now.

49 Responses to "Not that I assume my opinion will be read/heard or counts…"

1 | Blaze

May 14th, 2004 at 8:23 am

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Unfortunately, I find myself in the same quandery. I may continue to use MT for some of the Non-profit sites that I have worked on, since it still fits their needs (but stay at 2.661) — but I have been "looking" and have found WordPress to be a good PHP-based solution — and lo and behold — many of the same folks have been writing plug-ins!

http://www.wordpress.org/

2 | Chad

May 14th, 2004 at 8:56 am

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I was as shocked as you when I read MT's web site yesterday. This really disturbs me. I like the software and, like you, I like hosting my own stuff and playing with it behind the scenes. I was also assuming, from what I've read previously on their web site, that they would have an MT 3.0 and an MT Pro version, the latter being the paid version. I have a feeling they may loose some of their userbase because of this recent change…

3 | monique

May 14th, 2004 at 9:17 am

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i'm with you… its frustrating to people like me, i really like the product but i'm not a developer, i'm just a nerd with a little spare time. why should i have to pay for something that does less than what i have now? what happens to all the group blogs out there that don't want to pay? i understand we don't HAVE to upgrade, but why release a new product and basically deny the majority of your users the benefits of it?
this weekend i think i might give wordpress a try.

4 | Imabug

May 14th, 2004 at 9:57 am

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I've been using phpWebsite (http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu/) for a couple of my departmental websites for a little while now. So far it's been a really easy to use and configure PHP based CMS. No weblogging module though, which is why I also use MT. It does have add-in module capability though, so a weblog module could probably be written for it.

5 | Jennifer

May 14th, 2004 at 10:16 am

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Don't know if someone else has already said this – but dare I say…

6apart is a dollar short and a day late with MT 3.0? LOL!

6 | Natalie

May 14th, 2004 at 11:24 am

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I think they just shot themselves in the foot… no personal user is going to pay $70 (or more!) for a publishing tool for a blog. Sorry, but no. Especially when I have I think 10 journals on my installation now.

I'm going to continue using the version I have. It works fine for me. But if that stops working for me for some reason… well, guess I'll be looking for a new publishing tool.

7 | eve

May 14th, 2004 at 11:45 am

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I'm with you – i've donated – and even with the "discount" they are offering – I still can't afford it right now. I was really hoping for more with this release, and I guess above it all i'm just dissapointed. Unfortuntaly, right now i don't have time to tinker with new solutions, but I will soon in the coming months. Looking forward to hearing what you come up with.

8 | dahl

May 14th, 2004 at 12:16 pm

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sadly, i got majorly screwed over because i tested out the beta version of MT 3.0 and am having issues with it and was stupid and didn't back up everything else. now i can't go back to the old version, and if i upgrade to the free version, i'm left with finding a way to merge my 7 journals in to one. and given my current displeasure with 3.0, there is no way i'm paying for it with all the bugs it has right now.

9 | John

May 14th, 2004 at 12:28 pm

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Think, WordPress!

10 | Nicole

May 14th, 2004 at 1:23 pm

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I think Six Apart has made the move so they can make more money, work on features for customers willing to fork over cash and basically lock out the people that made them who they are.
People have done some amazing things with MT, through their own coding and such.
I know that working with it did not impress me. And in fact one of their employees in the forum was way less than patient with me when I tried to solve an original problem.
I still have the free zip version on my server, if anyone wants it, but I'm either going to develop something on my own, or just try something else out there.
ScriptyGoddess, thank you for allowing us the opportunity to talk about this, as it was really disheartening for me to see the new move.

11 | dahl

May 14th, 2004 at 2:02 pm

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Does anyone know if I will be able to revert back to the old version of MT? I was pretty happy with the way it worked, and not to happy with the beta version I have of MT 3.0, but I don't know if I can switch back….

12 | Chad

May 14th, 2004 at 2:11 pm

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I'm highly considering WordPress. It looks nice and sounds promising. I may have to give up some of my plug-ins (like the Netflix one), but I don't really mind that.

On an off-topic note, I would be interested to find out how you did the random number code to enter when posting a comment. It's definately there to prevent spam and I get a lot of that. ;o)

14 | justaperson

May 14th, 2004 at 2:51 pm

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I also donated even when it wasn't required, just because I loved the software and wanted to support the programmers. I gave $150 out of my own pocket 3 different times for 3 community activists I talked into MT. Now those people would be forced to pay something over $599 each because they all have created accounts for fellow researchers and activists who use the blog once in a while. Even the largest license doesn't cover them.

I'm afraid I'm moving on to Expression Engine. Yeah there's a $150-$200 cost, but there's no upper limit on blogs and accounts. Plus it has unlimited custom fields and a powerful subcategory system built right in. These are the features I was hoping to hear about in MT3 or MTPro. Instead I got a bit of a slap in the face.

I have to say I'm more sad than angry. Charging people more money for a less powerful product just does not make any sense. It feels like Ben and Mena have become the friendly-faced front for some corporate guys with MBA's and absolutely no understanding of the Internet. And that is just a major bummer.

15 | marcia kadanoff

May 14th, 2004 at 3:58 pm

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Good for you on two points. First, you recognize that MT and 6A needs to make money and that their need, intersecting with your feature requirements, is enough to make you look at alternative solutions. For a system based on PHP I recommend pMachine and/or Expression Engine – both available at http://www.pmachine.com. I know that your colleague over at Digital Woe moved from pMachine back to MT but we actually moved in the other direction. The complaint that she makes is that the MT community is far more active – which is true. But then they'd have to be more active. MT is written in Perl which makes it really hard for a coding novice to extend its functionality. PHP is child's play in comparison. The reason that the pMachine community is less active is simply because many of the add ons and innovations come from "real developers" who contribute to the larger PHP community.

Also kudos for you for paying for MT. I'm getting sick and tired of people equating anything on the web with a license to steal. Bear with me as I rant…

Recently came across this site at http://www.media-paradigm.com – which is direct rip off of our look and feel here at Firewhite http://www.firewhite.com This is appalling for a variety of different reasons.

First, our site was designed by Two Thirty Media http://www.twothirty.com out of Canada, one of our strategic partners. So, presumably Media Paradigm owes Paul Jarvis, President and CEO a design fee equal to what we paid for him to design our site.

Second, media-paradigm claims that it offers services in content management and graphic design. Well, if you are a graphic designer you don't need to steal. So I question whether media-paradigm offers any "real" services. Certainly, when it comes to coding, I'd have real doubt. Why? Because their rip off doesn't take advantage of CSS and tableless-design so as to meet web standards; our site does and was designed to do so. I can only assume that the UK is an world of hurt. If – as MP claims – these guys are the "UK's most established Web Development firm" be afraid, be very afraid. What this basically says is that no one in the UK – and by extension Europe – knows how to implement web standards.

Sorry for the rant but this burns me!

16 | ColdForged

May 14th, 2004 at 4:38 pm

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Yup, this one came as a surprise… and I just got done typing something very similar in my own blog. For the price, 3.0 doesn't provide nearly the kind of features I want. I was hoping for some of that TypePad goodness to rub off backwards, but instead we get TypeKey which one commenter has bothered using so far. Not enough.

I've switched over to the aforementioned WordPress. By switched over I don't imply being complete… I'm using the default template currently. But all the redirects work, all the entries have been imported, and all the comments are intact as well. Redirects from, for instance, Google work just dandy from the old heirarchy to the new single PHP script. So, I'm happy right now.

It's a shame. I was a donator and MT advocate. But without the sexiness I was hoping for, that $70 ain't gonna get far with me personally.

17 | Blinger

May 14th, 2004 at 5:40 pm

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I also gave $20 and have only been using MT since February this year. Since this pricing & restricted license fiasco started I have been looking at several different blog and general CMS systems.

I have found that several free ones have many more features than MT and are far more flexible. Drupal, B2evolution, and EE (not free) all are appealing to me. I would suggest to anyone doing some serious looking around to head over to http://opensourcecms.com and tryout the software before you install it.

18 | Jerrey

May 14th, 2004 at 5:59 pm

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I've been using Textpattern (www.textpattern.com). It's still in the early stages, but it's been solid with some nice features, PHP based and easy to implement.

19 | Iki

May 14th, 2004 at 6:14 pm

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I paid for and downloaded MT3.0 yesterday – because we had a berkeley db crash and I needed to redo it with MySQL. When I got to the MT site, I freaked out – I couldn't find anything that had been right there the night before! So I bit the bullet and paid the $70 for that version, downloaded it, installed it, and spent all day frigging around with it.

The verdict? So not worth it. The interface is pretty, and there's lots of commenting options now, but other than that, it's not something I'd pay money for. It pulls in the latest headlines off the MT website without asking me if I want that – and with yesterday's heavy traffic on the MT site, it adversely affected my installation.

Even more troubling was that some parts of it simply didn't work. I was unable to delete any posts; I couldn't delete a weblog either; half the "rebuild" buttons at the tops of pages didn't work at all. Now I don't know if that's just my copy, or a real bug, but I didn't feel like jumping through the TypePad hoops to try to get another copy.

The good news is I was able to painlessly retreat back to 2.661 this morning – and since I was using MySQL, it kept the authors and the entries. No problem at all. And with my 7 blogs, I think I'll just stay with it. They keep saying the "pay" part is for support – all the support I ever needed for MT I got in the support forums or on sites like this one. I've got to wonder if, now that they want you to pay for the software, they might start wanting to charge me to go into the forums. Scary.

(For the record, I donated $100 to MT over a year ago, so obviously I'm not adverse to paying for something I find valuable. But I'm not using my "credits" for this version, that's why I paid fresh cash yesterday. And I'll be asking for that cash back… as soon as I figure out how to do that. Cheeky little buggers didn't even give me a receipt for my purchase. How's that for screwed up?)

20 | Les

May 14th, 2004 at 6:18 pm

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I've written at least three entries about the news myself. I'm currently wavering between waiting to see how things play out in the next day or so and just making the move to WordPress for most of the blogs I host and Drupal for my primary blog.

Hmmmm. Decisions, decisions…

Though I must say it's never a good sign when a site like ScriptyGoddess is considering switching.

21 | Vi

May 14th, 2004 at 6:59 pm

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One of the problems I've run into in trying to find a MT replacement is finding something that generates static pages. Despite the rebuilds, I enjoyed the fact that the static content would be up even during a "database crisis". I'm currently trying to plot out an archive site to work in conjunction with a forum, which would make the static nature of the site that much more important (i.e., giving forum members a place to go for news and updates should there be a db problem.) If anyone knows of another CMS that can do this, I'd be eternally grateful!

22 | Shelley

May 14th, 2004 at 11:30 pm

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May I suggest that you explore the open source PHP based tools? Rather than go with another proprietary tool? pMachine and ExpressionEngine are good products, but tools like b2evolution and WordPress and others could use more scripting women, much less scripting goddesses.

23 | Jennifer

May 15th, 2004 at 12:12 am

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Shelley – I totally agree, and that's a huge reason why, even if I do start to use ExpressionEngine – I will still also keep one or two blogs powered by either b2evolution and/or wordpress. I want to be involved in those projects in some form. So… I haven't sold out completely just yet. 😉

24 | Michelle

May 15th, 2004 at 1:43 am

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I never used MT for my personal site because about the time it was getting popular I was coding my own script. For those of you who know a little PHP and enjoy playing with it, writing your own blog script is shockingly easy and you end up with something 100% customizable. The only thing MT does that my blog doesn't do is trackbacks, because I'm not interested in it.

But that's not why I am writing. I wanted to let you all know that if you are moving to a new script and you need to migrate your entries into a MySQL db, it is very easy and fast! Just set up your layout to output all of your entries on one page — set up as MySQL inserts! I did this when I moved from The Journaling Script (an old cgi script). Then just copy and paste into a file and upload/insert to your db.

25 | Camilo

May 15th, 2004 at 1:53 am

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Jennifer, this move from SA shocked the community from its foundations. Two things to learn: we made the blogging concept as important as it is now, and some sort of GPL software is the route to go.
It is comforting to see that you are looking at other CMS as well – you are very important part of the support for MT and of the developers that made it attractive.
Will have to learn php, I suppose. Worpress, here I come.

26 | Beerzie Yoink

May 17th, 2004 at 2:32 pm

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I'm no coder, and I respect your opinion, but I'm a little shocked at the reaction. Just how long did people think this would be free?

I respect that 6A has moved towards a paying version of their product, but it has been badly communicated, ineptly managed, and the pricing system…well "hinky" would be too kind of a word.

Because they have done an admirable job over the years, I will — like I would a friend — give them the benefit of the doubt and be forgiving and patient while the work out these kinks. If not…Wordpress, here I come.

27 | Jon

May 17th, 2004 at 2:58 pm

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Here's another CMS system worth checking out:

http://www.mamboserver.com

No affiliation, etc.

Also, http://www.opensourcecms.com will let you try out a bunch of different CMS solutions without the hassle of installing them yourself.

28 | Jennifer

May 17th, 2004 at 3:44 pm

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Beerzie – to your comment "Just how long did people think this would be free?" shows me that you have not been paying attention to what the people that have a problem with this have been saying.

I don't know how many times we have to repeat ourselves – but we're not saying that 6A shouldn't get paid for their work. Many of the people who are most outspoken about this – have in fact ALREADY GIVEN THEM MONEY.

Here's the short version of the issues:

1) 6A SUCKS at communicating. PERIOD. Love 'em. Hate 'em. Everyone I think agrees on this one point.

2) They're relasing an upgrade that has very few new features and yet, asking quite a nice price for this feature-less upgrade (yes, I know it's wonderful if you're a PERL developer. How many bloggers are PERL developers?)

3) OR – if there are features that have yet to be mentioned – they actually released the PRICING FIRST BEFORE TELLING YOU WHY IT COSTS SO MUCH?!?
(Imagine me telling you I'm going to charge you $5000 – but I won't tell you why until later. I'm sure you'd have a few choice words for me)

As for the admirable job they've done over the years? I don't think I agree. I've been using MT since they first came out – and it's been a LONG LONG LONG time since **THEY** have made any major improvements to this particular piece of software. Case in point: We've all been getting comment spammed to death – and they've barely lifted a finger to fix the flaws in the software that allow the comment spammers to do what they do. It's people like Jay that have worked their asses off to help.

For me – I'd like to be involved in something a little more COMMUNITY oriented. Where the developers of the software are in touch with reality and their users – which is the way MT *USED* to be. That is, before Ben and Mena – became "6A".

29 | Vincent

May 18th, 2004 at 9:18 am

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While it's not PHP, I've been checking out blosxom (at http://www.blosxom.org) it's a different animal than MT, but I really like it. It's only one 18k file to boot. :)

30 | Lawrence Krubner

May 21st, 2004 at 2:31 am

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Michelle wrote: "For those of you who know a little PHP and enjoy playing with it, writing your own blog script is shockingly easy and you end up with something 100% customizable. The only thing MT does that my blog doesn't do is trackbacks, because I'm not interested in it."

That is a good point. I think it is great fun to write scripts for oneself – one does end up with total control. But if one ever wants to share that work with others, or customize it for another setting, a lot of work can be involved. I started writing a simple weblog script in 2001, and then rewrote it several times for various freelance web design projects I did. The constant rewrites meant that I was never able to get it fully bug free. I'd made some assumptions early on that dogged the code as I adapted it for larger projects. Last fall, when myself and some friends teamed up to take on some larger scale web projects, I decided to do a fairly complete rewrite. Now we have an ambitious script with lots of features, but it is quite buggy and we are still working out the kinks (we do give it away for free though, in a few months we hope to have a stable version).

I think its great fun to write scripts for oneself, I did it, but I also think it is the nature of software to grow over time, or stagnate and become useless. After awhile, if your script grows, it takes additional resources, more of your time and energy, to keep it going, and you have to decide if you can justify the expenditure of time (perhaps by making money with it) or if you should give it up and use some free code put out by a team that is ready to give their project what it needs to grow.

31 | Megalion

May 29th, 2004 at 3:43 pm

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Just FYI, I read through the comments and no one seems to have noticed/realized that you can still get MT 3.0 for free.

It's easily missed but when you look on the GET Movable Type page (http://secure.sixapart.com/), look on the right and down a little and you'll see MOVABLE TYPE FREE. Pretty much the only thing that is different for me from before and now is that there's a 1 author/3 blog limit.

I too am disappointed that there's not a lot of actual new features in 3.0, I've downloaded the installs via the free method but probably won't actually install them on my live blogs (just play with them to see if its worth it to do so).

32 | Silverberry

May 14th, 2004 at 10:23 am

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MT 3.0 shooting themselves in the foot?
I'm a big Movable Type lover. I use it on a jillion websites – and it is an awesome, powerful and extremely customizable tool for webmasters everywhere. One of the reasons Movable Type IS so loved by people like myself…

33 | Rodent Regatta

May 14th, 2004 at 10:51 am

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Somebody Start Keeping Score
Scriptygoddess anticipates a probable move!…

34 | Far From Perfect

May 14th, 2004 at 11:45 am

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MT Alternatives
With the new pricing and licensing schemes at :mt:, I have been forced to start looking elsewhere for comparable software. I still hold out hope SixApart will see the error of their ways and adjust but failing that, here are my choices so far: Expressi…

35 | prolific.org

May 14th, 2004 at 7:12 pm

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MT 3.0. Get your wad out.
Briefly (and roughly, since it's 2.30 am already) then, my take on today's Movable Type 3.0 release and its pricing…

36 | A Penny For...

May 14th, 2004 at 7:14 pm

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Free Market at Work
Rodent Regetta has a good summary of the current turbulence in blogging software. RR also links to Scripty Goddess, who says she doesn't know where she is going, but she will be changing platforms. She highlights the idea that for a company that writes…

37 | joatBlog

May 15th, 2004 at 12:29 am

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New MT blogging license
Read . Count me amongst the negative response from the "personal users" and those who've put a lot of work into the code behind their sites. J (if you're reading…

38 | Garinungkadol

May 15th, 2004 at 7:02 am

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The shit hits the fan
I leave for a little while and look what happens! Moveable Type 3.0 was released with horrific limitations. $69.95 introductory…

39 | neoramble

May 15th, 2004 at 8:53 am

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A bit more MT stuff…
Shelley Powers over at BurningBird has an interesting bit on the MT controversy. And it appears Mark Pilgrim has made the jump too. It appears Jennifer over at Scriptygoddess may also do so. If you want my opinion, 6A really…

40 | mamamusings

May 16th, 2004 at 2:08 pm

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market research mistakes
In SixApart's response to the MT 3.0 feedback fiasco, Mena says: One of the most valid comments we heard is that the personal licenses do not work well for many people who are currently using Movable Type. This surprised us because in a survey of…

41 | Modern Geekery

May 16th, 2004 at 4:19 pm

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Moveable Type 3: Puzzling decisions and bad marketing
The folks at Six Apart have announced (and subsequently refined) their paid scheme for MT 3. For a basic user/weblog setup, such as the one used here at Modern Geekery, there is no problem. As many other people have pointed…

42 | Modern Geekery

May 16th, 2004 at 4:19 pm

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Moveable Type 3: Puzzling decisions and bad marketing
The folks at Six Apart have announced (and subsequently refined) their paid scheme for MT 3. For a basic user/weblog setup, such as the one used here at Modern Geekery, there is no problem. As many other people have pointed…

43 | Chetan's monologue

May 17th, 2004 at 4:19 am

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MT take-2
I have to admit the more you look at the alternatives to Movabletype, more difficult it is to let go of it. Simply because it's too great a tool than the rest put together. It's no wonder that so many of us are so passionate…

44 | Chetan's monologue

May 17th, 2004 at 4:27 am

Avatar

MT take-2
I have to admit the more you look at the alternatives to Movabletype, more difficult it is to let go of it. Simply because it's too great a tool than the rest put together. It's no wonder that so many of us are so passionate…

45 | c u l t u r e k i t c h e n

May 19th, 2004 at 3:53 am

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The Great Blogtercation of 2004 : Or on social networks and data mining
Six Apart, the people that created Movable Type, the blogware that runs this here site, released the much anticipated MT 3.0 with a licensing agreement radically different from the ones they've ran up until version MT 2.661 … and all hell broke loose…

46 | c u l t u r e k i t c h e n

May 19th, 2004 at 12:54 pm

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The Great Blogtercation of 2004 : Or on social networks and data mining
UP

47 | Chetan's monologue

May 20th, 2004 at 8:09 pm

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MT take-2
I have to admit the more you look at the alternatives to Movabletype, more difficult it is to let go of it. Simply because it's too great a tool than the rest put together. It's no wonder that so many of us are so passionate…

48 | Velvet Unravelled » Blog Archive » Movable Type 4 beta and an open source version

June 9th, 2007 at 3:03 am

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[…] a personal preference for programming in languages other than Perl, notably PHP. Shelley Powers and Jennifer of ScriptyGoddess made observations at the time that PHP was their programming language of choice and that this […]

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